This isn't political

"Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney" (braddelaparker) 01/17/2018 at 10:56 • Filed to: None

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70% of households took the standard deduction on their Federal tax under the old standard deduction amounts.

The standard deductions for all filer types just doubled.

You’re getting a tax cut, regardless of whether it’s right or you want it or it aligns with your political affiliations.

jimz > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 11:05

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great. so that means I’ll have more to spend on fixing whatever parts of my suspension got pounded into smithereens this week.

Shamoononon drives like a farmer > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 11:11

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Nope, they took away my ability to claim state income tax and my mortgage tax and interest was severely limited. Not really a win for me.

jimz > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 11:11

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but yeah, thanks for handing out pacifiers to everyone.

Milky > jimz 01/17/2018 at 11:12

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Textured Soy Protein > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 11:13

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“I’m going to talk about this thing that politicians did recently, but it’s not political.”

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > Shamoononon drives like a farmer 01/17/2018 at 11:13

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Much as I sympathize with you, you represent less than 30% of all taxpayers.

For Sweden > jimz 01/17/2018 at 11:14

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Hopefully Michigan will raise taxes and keep the highway repair funds filled.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > Textured Soy Protein 01/17/2018 at 11:15

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That’s how you do these things on Oppo, duh.

fintail > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 11:16

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Yay a few dollars a week traded for crushing future debts and an even wider socio-economic chasm.

Totally not political, nope.

vondon302 > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 11:16

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It’d be nice if it was permanent.

Also looks like the federal gas tax is gonna go up .25 cents a gallon to pay for it while our infrastructure crumbles.

yay

punkgoose17 > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 11:16

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I was $200 under being able to itemize my deductions. For 2018 taxes I’ll probably get $1000 extra back. My worry has been with the change to child deductions will it hurt large families? I was not worrying about myself I was worrying about fictious people I don’t know. Now my thought is whatever happens will happen.

Milky > For Sweden 01/17/2018 at 11:19

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They’re trying to lower state taxes too.

someassemblyrequired > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 11:20

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And the standard deduction included extra deductions for every dependent. Which are now gone, and which the child tax increase doesn’t cover. That’s before the cap on state and local taxes. It’s a tax increase if you have kids.

For Sweden > Milky 01/17/2018 at 11:22

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Then call your state representatives and demand higher taxes.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Shamoononon drives like a farmer 01/17/2018 at 11:24

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Same here, when I itemize I get like another $10,000 in deductions.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > fintail 01/17/2018 at 11:26

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It certainly doesn’t make it a good bill.

ttyymmnn > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 11:34

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Give the common people a tax cut, then gradually take it away to pay for the permanent cuts for corporations and the wealthy.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2017/dec/15/gwen-moore/house-tax-plan-permanent-tax-cuts-rich-eventually-/

jimz > For Sweden 01/17/2018 at 11:36

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Hopefully Michigan will raise taxes and keep the highway repair funds filled

His Stigness > fintail 01/17/2018 at 11:38

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That’s so scary: people will see extra money in their pockets now, but will refuse to think about the long term effects. We just got through repealing the Bush era tax cuts, and now we have to deal with even bigger ones.

fintail > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 11:38

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Indeed I agree on that.

And all we need is a little spike in gas prices to cancel it all out. Remember the summer of 08.

For Sweden > jimz 01/17/2018 at 11:39

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There’s always the voluntary option https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/gift/gift.htm

His Stigness > Shamoononon drives like a farmer 01/17/2018 at 11:39

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I don’t really understand how it’s fair that someone who can afford to buy a house gets a bigger tax credit than someone who only rents.

Yes, the loss of the mortgage deduction will not be fun for some people, but it levels the playing field for the millions of other taxpayers who can’t even afford to buy a house.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > ttyymmnn 01/17/2018 at 11:42

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That’s not explicitly wrong, but tax policy by nature is designed with sunset provisions that are almost always renewed for the sake of political expediency, and the biggest mover being the corporate tax cut which, as a structural centerpiece, is always going to be permanent.

Rest assured, if the sunset provisions that hit in 2022 and 2027 are actually allowed to sunset, it’ll be a bloodbath during mid-terms for whichever party stands in the way.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 11:43

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My friend got this in a fortune cookie a couple weeks ago.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > His Stigness 01/17/2018 at 11:44

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Precisely.

My point with all of this is that, if you’re negatively impact by this tax bill, you’re likely a homeowner with a six figure income; there’s not going to be a lot of sympathy for those taxpayers, and they’re certainly not the ones that pundits are talking about when they openly and deliberately question just how many of the middle class are actually getting a tax cut.

jimz > For Sweden 01/17/2018 at 11:46

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good luck with that. remember, we’re a country where the average person relentlessly complains about how we’re “over-taxed” even though the US ranks in the bottom third worldwide as far as overall taxes go.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > someassemblyrequired 01/17/2018 at 11:49

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The breaking point for the changes to the exemptions + child tax credit is looking like it’s going to be ~3 kids/5 person household.

Again, no probably not a great outcome for those households, but the average household size in this country is a few decimals over 3; it just doesn’t represent the majority of taxpaying households.

For Sweden > jimz 01/17/2018 at 11:49

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If none of these options are viable, you better take up arms or move.

fintail > His Stigness 01/17/2018 at 11:50

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And really, the Ds didn’t do much to reverse the first trickle down nonsense, either. Tax cuts with no compensating spending cuts other than threats to cut the already threadbare safety net do nothing but kick the can down the road and present problems for future generations.

WRXforScience > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 11:54

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I’ll see a tax break (under $1000) because I’m single with no children and I live in an apartment. If I had kids and a mortgage I wouldn’t see any real benefits.

I don’t make enough to actually start to pay more taxes unless I had a lot of hypothetical children or a higher mortgage than I could pay, maybe my hypothetical wife makes bank or a super rich uncle who’s going to die and leave me 10's of millions of dollars that are no longer taxed.

The bigger issue is: what do we get out of the tax cut. The majority of people see little tangible gain while the bulk of the costs go to corporations and the wealthy. The debt and deficit increase are designed to make cutting social programs more appealing (again, I’m not directly effected since I’m relatively young and healthy and don’t currently take advantage of any of these programs).

The stated reasons for the tax bill and the likely effects don’t match. Taxes won’t be simpler, jobs won’t be created, and the stimulus on the economy will be smaller than the cost of the cuts. We aren’t fighting high inflation, like the during the Reagan administration when the previous “trickle down” tax cut helped spur modest growth only because of the incredibly high inflation.

The bill we got was either disingenuous or poorly conceived. So the authors were either liars and crooks, delusional, or idiots (I’d put my money on a combination thereof). The only logical reason for this tax bill is to garner support from the donor class and corporations at the expense of everyone else.

fintail > His Stigness 01/17/2018 at 11:55

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Subsidy for the FIRE industry.

BigBlock440 > ttyymmnn 01/17/2018 at 11:57

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Corporations have things called 5 and 10 year plans, individuals don’t. If you want to spur investments, you make sure that the draw for those investments isn’t a variable.

Shoop > His Stigness 01/17/2018 at 11:59

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Because if you can’t afford a house you’re not paying the property taxes that pay for your towns shit

For Sweden > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 12:02

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“We are the 30%”

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > WRXforScience 01/17/2018 at 12:10

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Don’t disagree in the least with your questions about the efficacy of the tax cut and its long-term ramifications; I think it’s a bad tax bill. I think there are some structural issues that will prevent this us from achieving the GDP growth we would need to in order for the bill to be considered a success, notwithstanding the questions surrounding whether the bill will actually stimulate any of the changes to cause growth to jump.

That doesn’t change the fact that the media’s presentation of “we don’t even know if the middle class will get a tax break” is fundamentally and mathematically incorrect. We do know in the aggregate, regardless of how many unique circumstances you can float out there to present a situation where someone isn’t getting a tax cut from this bill.

Per the NY Times, 70% of registered Democrats surveyed don’t believe they’ll be getting a tax cut as a result of this bill. That’s fundamentally wrong even aside from the politics and long-term effects of the bill. Much like science should matter for the Right, math should matter for the Left.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > For Sweden 01/17/2018 at 12:11

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The six-figure-earning, house-owning urbanites will not be silenced!

TahoeSTi > ttyymmnn 01/17/2018 at 12:12

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It was also a tax cut for Small businesses, as we too have to pay the corporate rate no matter how much or how little we make. And a large chunk (over 50% I believe) people in America work for or own a small business or sole proprietorship. Corporations aren’t bad .... it’s just another word for business.

For Sweden > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 12:13

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“Our voices will be heard! And no, Tufts wasn’t a safety school. I always wanted to be a Jumbo!”

random001 > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 12:13

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Is it? Fundamentally wrong, I mean. If they surveyed democrats in California, New Jersey, and New York, those folks might be right that they’ll get no cuts, or things will get worse. That’s the thing, though, isn’t it?

TahoeSTi > fintail 01/17/2018 at 12:13

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If you don’t want the debt start asking your congressmen to spend less.

Nick Has an Exocet > random001 01/17/2018 at 12:17

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Statistics are fun like that. Anecdotally though, most of the friends I know (mostly democrats) think that the new tax bill with hurt them. But I know what they make and what their life situations are. They are incorrect.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > random001 01/17/2018 at 12:18

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It’s horrific sample if your survey found a disproportionate number of this specific subset of people that are six figure income earning homeowners in high tax states, which is not even close to a majority of the households in this country.

I’ll confess to not having looked into the polling methodology, but I have a lot more confidence in the NYT than to allow for such horrific error in polling methodology.

someassemblyrequired > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 12:20

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But those households are the ones that actually spend their income. If they cut back, it’s a recession, especially when coupled with the tax increases that will fall on places with high state and local taxes (which tend to be the areas with the greatest contributions to GDP). Even the best case scenario is highly inflationary.

fintail > TahoeSTi 01/17/2018 at 12:23

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Spend less where? Yeah, let’s make the safety net even more threadbare and comparable to what some big mouthed rotting pumpkins might call crapholes, not to mention infrastructure.

How about let’s not dive into trickle down lies again without having working compensatory measures in place.

random001 > Nick Has an Exocet 01/17/2018 at 12:24

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I got two kids, with no plans for more, a mortgage, bad neighbors, etc. and even I have no idea. Conflicting reports, even out of the same government, have made it difficult to sort the husk from the bean.

Nick Has an Exocet > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 12:25

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Bob is correct. The way sunsets and renewals work is that things are designed to be renewed up until the point where they are superseded by something better or more important. You can also make the case that you need “permanent” cuts for corporations so that you’re not constantly shaking the earth out from under them.

TahoeSTi > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 12:25

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The Corporate tax rate is a cut for all businesses, and more so for small business. People already realize large companies pay lawyers and accountants to play games to avoid taxes. So they already had their cuts when they all moved to Ireland. This current cut really helps us small businesses who can’t afford the lawyers and accountants and are stuck in one location. Believe it or not most of us work for a small business so this cut is good:

“According to the Census Bureau and the Small Business Administration, about 60 million Americans worked for small businesses in 2006. This is about 51 percent of the private, nonfarm U.S. workforce. They define small businesses as private firms having fewer than 500 employees.Jul 17, 2009"

The other thing it did is allow for the repatriation of money. Before companies had to pay 40% to bring profits earned overseas back to the USA, so instead they all set up shop in Ireland which was 0%. This saved Ireland’s economy but slowly crushed ours.What this did was it made it 40% cheaper instantly to build factories, farms, and buy equipment in the country they made the money in instead of investing back home. Companies profits are taxed in the country the earn it in and then again when they try to move the money to another country. So it’s easy to see why they stopped investing in the US. and that investment goes to small business who provide services for larger companies.

So stop saying this is just for the rich. This is for American business.

random001 > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 12:25

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While I don’t disagree that it would be horrible, I also don’t think the NYT runs most of it’s polls. They buy them off someone. Remember, Trump won because of bad polling.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > someassemblyrequired 01/17/2018 at 12:25

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I buy the steps you take, but I don’t think I’m buying the conclusion that 5 person households have an outweighted impact on the overall economy.

TahoeSTi > fintail 01/17/2018 at 12:28

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The first ever DOD audit already found $840 million in lost helicopters .... I bet with a few more audits we can spend less and get more.

Why do publicly traded corporations have to publish all their assests quarterly but the government doesn’t? We can keep the things we have we just have to look and how we are already spending.

fintail > TahoeSTi 01/17/2018 at 12:30

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Maybe do all that before launching into tax policies that have only failed in the past? (ok, they have succeeded in making many factors worse).

If you ask for for such audits after, it’s never going to happen. But heck, we can’t even get tax returns.

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 12:34

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“Per the NY Times, 70% of registered Democrats surveyed don’t believe they’ll be getting a tax cut as a result of this bill.”

Could it partly be because they know the tax cut is temporary? And that, longer term, they are scheduled to go away, with some predicting tax INCREASES for most after that. So big picture, it feels more like a small tax break or handout rather than a real meaningful “cut.” 

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 01/17/2018 at 12:36

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Survey specifically asked for 2018

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/business/economy/tax-economy-survey.html?_r=1&referer=

BigBlock440 > His Stigness 01/17/2018 at 12:40

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I don’t really understand how it’s fair that someone who can afford to buy a house gets a bigger tax credit than someone who only rents.

Because the government wanted to encourage home ownership, so they use the tax bill. Just like everything else.

TahoeSTi > fintail 01/17/2018 at 12:40

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Tax returns aren’t required, the history of them being published is rather short, and because of campaign funding issues.

Audits for government agencies are something we should be demanding as voters. They spend our money shouldn’t we know how and what they spend it on? I wasn’t happy to hear about the congressional slush fund for sex offenders.....that’s our money shouldn’t we know what they use it for?

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > random001 01/17/2018 at 12:40

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This is becoming a really complex theory about explaining a polling result that has a much simpler explanation. Polls aren’t perfect, but achieving a polling error that’s massive in its scale versus the expected that’s the result of the three fundamental breakdowns in the polling criteria is...I’m having a hard time buying it.

WilliamsSW > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 12:41

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While that’s true, I think there are going to be some unintended consequences in some of the areas taking a hit. I fully expect home prices to take a hit in my area as a result of the tax law change, and it’ll take homebuilders and residential construction down with it.

I’m also curious as to how my congressman makes out on this - he’s a Republican who voted for the tax bill, which will probably hurt much of his constituency...

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 12:43

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Cool thanks for the link. I’d say it was just the skewed opinion of party lines then.

Like others posting here, my personal situation has my taxes barely moving. So it definitely doesn’t “feel” like a big tax cut to me.

I definitely don’t see myself spending any more next year than I did last year.

Well that’s not true... I’ll be paying way more for healthcare. :/

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > WilliamsSW 01/17/2018 at 12:44

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You have a good point, but I think there’s a good counterargument that if home prices in an area are dependent on interest deductibility and local tax rates, then you’re looking at a housing market that was pretty unstable and would be easily rattled by a number of macro events anyhow, and a change in tax burden might be about the most orderly way of the market reckoning those issues.

WilliamsSW > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 12:46

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Agreed - -and actually I left out an important point. While I agree with your point, and His Stigness’ point about subsidizing homeowners, from an *economic* standpoint, it makes much more sense to phase that out over time, so as to not rattle the economy downstream.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > fintail 01/17/2018 at 12:52

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I love it when people post something going “I don’t know what you fools are complaining about!” and then when multiple people explain why people are complaining they’re all “you’re so right! But it’s still a tax cut!”.

Well then, you DO get why people are complaining. Sure, this may on the face of it be a very nominal tax cut to a majority of folks – but not one that would create any meaningful differences to our economy, and certainly not one that is worth everything we’re giving up for it.

fintail > TahoeSTi 01/17/2018 at 12:58

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True, but Dotard whined about Mitt not providing his. To fail to do so for himself is the height of hypocrisy - which is one of the traits that defines him as a person.

Those audits are a pie in the sky dream unless they are mandated before diving into more trickle down lies. And as if voters have a say in such matters.

fintail > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 01/17/2018 at 13:00

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Usually the “but it’s a tax cut” screamers have never actually studied economics, and many probably can’t even balance their checkbook.

The consequences of such cuts have virtually always proven to be greater than the benefits. There’s no reason why things won’t be different this time around.

random001 > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 13:13

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Oh no, we’re just starting to get complex. Wait till we start into the quantum entanglement laboratory in Cheyenne mountain being used to influence voters...

Shamoononon drives like a farmer > His Stigness 01/17/2018 at 13:31

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I bust my ass to purchase a house - I’m a single parent who opted to stay at just one child so that I can afford other things. I’m ALWAYS at work. Still I pay 25k in taxes. Not cool.

TahoeSTi > fintail 01/17/2018 at 13:37

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IF voters don’t have a say, then the government is FUBAR, and it’s time to hit reset. We must demand audits.

WRXforScience > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 13:52

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New York is a bit of a special case though, with its high state taxes and all. If you look at the next 10yrs (many of the individual cuts start phasing out after 5yrs) it is quite possible (especially in high tax states) for individuals to pay more in taxes over the next decade because of the “tax cut”.

Tax cuts as economic stimulus does not work. It didn’t work in the 80's and it caused Kansas to go bankrupt. The only people who spend most of the money from tax cuts are at the bottom of the tax brackets and who get the least from this tax cut.

We’d have been better off just giving everyone $10k one time payment as the only tax cut. Most people would see way more income (and they’d spend most of it). It’d cost about $3 trillion which is about the same as the tax cut we got.

If I were in charge, I’d also raise the top tax brackets to about 50% (where it used to be before Reagan) and remove nearly all deductions, loopholes, and differentiation between how the income is made (no special capital gains rate). I’d strive to make the minimum basic income or at least a partial basic income (like the $10k for everyone) permanent and annual (paid for by the rich paying more and the actual increase in consumer spending from the payments).

I’d also go to a single payer healthcare system, free college for everyone who qualifies, and strive to depoliticize as many basic functions and decisions as possible (that’s probably the least achievable). I want the US to become such a beacon of prosperity, progress, and peace that the people and countries of the world want to join us. I want the country to become so much more than it ever has been that everything that came before is looked upon as the dark precursor to a marvelous epoch of the Great Age of America and eventually, mankind.

We should look to the future and not to the past and should only ever strive to Make America Great.

Then we can look back at the past and swear, Never Again.

someassemblyrequired > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/17/2018 at 14:02

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Dual income, no kids family isn’t going to spend their tax cut. The 5 person household would be more likely to, but is now cutting back. The DINKs behavior won’t appreciably change (an extra meal out, maybe a bigger car, but bottom line their entire tax cut won’t be spent). However the 5 person household is probably closer to paycheck to paycheck. They (or any paycheck to paycheck family seeing an increase) will likely cut their consumption more than several DINK/retiree housholds will increase their consumption, which is recessionary. While there are additional savings from those who don’t spend their tax cut, it is a low interest rate environment, and those extra savings will likely be inflationary rather than leading to additional growth.

fintail > TahoeSTi 01/17/2018 at 14:55

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I think we know the answer to that. Demand audits? What’s your plan for that?

If voters had a real say, not in some gerrymandered nightmare, things might be different. But maybe not much better.

jimz > fintail 01/17/2018 at 15:16

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the Boomers don’t care about future generations. They’ve got it in their heads that they are the best thing which ever happened to this country, and every one coming after (even the generation they themselves begat) are just terrible.

jimz > Shoop 01/17/2018 at 15:17

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yes you are, it’s just rolled into your rent.

TahoeSTi > fintail 01/17/2018 at 15:22

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Vote out all incumbents until they do what we demand.

Or just get everyone to vote libertarian.

His Stigness > Shoop 01/17/2018 at 15:52

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The homeowner still is, which you are in turn paying through the rent each month. So why should the homeowner, who is making a profit off of the house, also get to write off the taxes they pay on the house?

fintail > TahoeSTi 01/17/2018 at 15:53

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Sadly, the new candidates are every bit as bad as the old ones, if not worse.

I’m not sure the Randian dream is a way forward.

His Stigness > Shamoononon drives like a farmer 01/17/2018 at 15:53

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How many kids you have has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you can afford a house. I guess my mom should have just ignored me and my siblings and saved for a house instead of helping us pay for college and make sure we have health insurance?

Yup, people who rent are just lazy shits who don’t work hard enough. Oh and they have too many kids.

His Stigness > fintail 01/17/2018 at 15:56

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You’re right. I think the only Democrat who currently thinks about the future is Brown, and he’s being spat on by Democrats in Sacramento who want to spend the budget surplus now.

I’m super liberal, but I absolutely agree with Brown that we need to start the belt tightening now, before it’s too late.

fintail > jimz 01/17/2018 at 15:58

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They do a great job in kicking the can down the road, I’ll give them that - unfortunately, many of them are stomping on the can before they kick it. A disaster, and we are reaping what they’ve sown now.

The whining about new generations really makes me smirk and cringe. They don’t understand the relationship between apples and trees.

fintail > His Stigness 01/17/2018 at 16:09

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From what I have read about some public sector pay and pension in CA, no surprise he is facing opposition - who wants to give up their gravy train?

Even more amusing are the rightists in that state who have reaped windfall profits from (often inherited) real estate and simply by existing in certain prosperous areas, yet whining about the place at the same time.

Tax cuts are grand, but do it without real plans, and it’ll be disaster for someone - almost certainly not those in the top few or even top half.

TahoeSTi > fintail 01/17/2018 at 16:23

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That’s fine if they are there for only 2 years jerrymadering will fail when strategy stops working they’ll have to start listening to voters.

It doesn’t matter if you think the other persons better or worst the fact is they are all the same, especially when you look at all their dimensions, not just the 2 you care about. Voting out incumbents is the only way to get any change.

fintail > TahoeSTi 01/17/2018 at 16:42

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One issue, the non-incumbents are just the same too, beholden to the same interests. Listen to voters? The voters will do as they are told, so long as they are appeased by old books or boom sticks or promises of trickle down miracles.

I can’t think of any viable candidates who aren’t just the same clown in a different suit - and now we have an especially stinky clown in a painfully ill-fitting suit.

His Stigness > fintail 01/17/2018 at 16:44

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Oh god, the conservatives in this state are insufferable. They make money hand over fist, are sitting on top of literal gold mines with their houses, but never, EVER shut up about how much they hate this state.

I wish they would move, but they’re too smart to sell their houses now.

Shamoononon drives like a farmer > His Stigness 01/17/2018 at 16:44

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Man, you really are angry that I own a house, wow! Why should homeowners get to write off taxes - double taxation is # 1. Some people have different priorities, if that’s owning a home then that’s their/my choice.  You want one? Go get the loan for one and pay the exuberant payments, HOA, taxes, etc.

I guarantee I pay at least the same percentage or more than you do in-income taxes in addition to the property taxes used to build schools/etc.

TahoeSTi > fintail 01/17/2018 at 16:45

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that’s why you keep voting them out. Never let anyone sit in Congress for more than 2 years. We should also disband nationwide political parties.

We should elect new clowns the old clowns start to stink after a while. The longer they stay the more power the clown has, and a clown with power is......well i think we all can see that now.

fintail > His Stigness 01/17/2018 at 16:49

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It’s the same in Seattle. Endless complaints, especially about millennials, but they wouldn’t have it nearly as good if they lived in a conservative area in terms of asset appreciation or job market - yet they think they are in hell. Yeah, the house you bought in 1985 for 100K is now worth 1MM, you poor abused innocent.

fintail > TahoeSTi 01/17/2018 at 16:51

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I definitely support term limits, and an end to the two party system. The lobbying cabal should also be disbanded.

His Stigness > Shamoononon drives like a farmer 01/17/2018 at 16:54

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It’s not like rentals don’t property taxes. I’m paying the same property taxes, HOA fees, and other crap, as every other homeowner. The only difference is because the name isn’t on the title I don’t get to deduct those taxes.

And in terms of “double taxation.” What about the interest rate on one of my cars; why can’t I deduct the interest on that loan while homeowners deduct their property taxes?

TahoeSTi > fintail 01/17/2018 at 17:02

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100% agree, we just have to use the tools we have as voters to get there. Which means voting out people, and not spending money with companies the use lobbiest to bully the government around.

Ideally, we’d have a government that’s small enough there are no benefits in paying a lobbyist. Removing incentives is the only want to change things which means limiting the power of a central government.

Shamoononon drives like a farmer > His Stigness 01/17/2018 at 17:14

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I don’t get an interest rate deduction on my cars either. You do get renters credit though and have the option to buy a home.

You are NOT paying the same as any home owner. You would have to drop at least 30-40% on a home to have a payment that comes to that of rent and then you are responsible for maintenance, taxes, etc as well. Your landlord is definitely paying the property tax.

I digress though, if everyone wants a straight standard deduction I could be in on it. But that also means things that I supplement so no deductions or supplements for student loans, no child tax care credit, no supplementing medical insurance, etc, etc.
At the end of this Bob was wrong, the deductions only went down for people who already own their homes, or people that do not have one or for people who don’t pay state income taxes (at least anything over about 5,000).

His Stigness > fintail 01/17/2018 at 18:11

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I’m so sick of the bitching about millennials, especially since it’s done by boomers. It’s amazing how such a young generation can screw everything up for everyone. I guess they have special time traveling powers and set the economy up the way it is now.

Oh, wait ....

fintail > TahoeSTi 01/17/2018 at 21:20

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Easier said than done, I fear. To vote for real progress, we need legitimate candidates. One won’t fall into that role right now without money, and it has to come from somewhere. It’s a real catch-22. The pitfalls of what has become an oligocracy.

Some parts of the government definitely need a trim, but it’s a slippery slope. The US already has a quality of life for most that pales in comparison to developed social democracies in Europe, and it will probably only lag more in the next few years.

fintail > His Stigness 01/17/2018 at 21:23

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I think it is envy of youth - nothing else makes sense. The generation that would never get old is now senior citizens, and that irks them. So many boomers had it so much easier than those starting out today, I doubt many of them could hack it if the roles were reversed. One would think Xers would be more irritated at the youngins, as they work closer with them - but I think Xers are also just trying to keep their heads above water.

The best part, this is no different than the old codger generation whining about hippies 50 years ago - now the boomers are the codgers, but this time, the oldsters had it easier in terms of menial job pay, cost of education and healthcare, cost of housing, job competition, etc.

His Stigness > fintail 01/17/2018 at 22:01

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I think the other issue is boomers are senile and don’t realize that they had it a lot easier than millennials. They make it seem like they had to crawl through the mud when it was probably not the case at all.

I agree that the boomer’s parents were probably bitching just as much as they are now, but they were probably bitching because their kids were changing their realities, whereas, as you pointed out, millennials are just trying to keep their heads above water.

TahoeSTi > fintail 01/17/2018 at 22:12

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We either do something or we don’t, we control how we vote and how we spend money and that’s pretty much it. So we must take action with what we control.

The quality of life in other countries isn’t what you see on TV. Stop thinking the grass is greener. And just do something.

fintail > TahoeSTi 01/17/2018 at 22:20

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Big words, but what are you doing? Where does your vote go? Which party is offering a way forward? D, R, L, all different flavors of the same ending.

I’ve spent significant time in Europe, thanks.

fintail > His Stigness 01/17/2018 at 22:24

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That’s it too, senility, or at least, the cantankerous attitude that comes with age, and for many, entitlement. They also don’t seem to realize that they are the ones who created the millennials. It’s your education and parenting that created this demographic, boomers. You broke it (not saying they are broken, just different, like all new generations), you bought it. I love hearing my 60-something uncle complain about “kids today”, hearing older types complain minimum wage is too high, etc.

I’m just about 40, detached from the young ones, and I don’t envy them. It was easier even 20 years ago then now, when it comes to education and getting started.

His Stigness > fintail 01/17/2018 at 23:14

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HA! The minimum wage is too high? That’s rich coming from the generation of inflation.

I’m in the prime millennial age, and I can’t stand people my age. They’re all a bunch of whiny, self-entitled little shits. It doesn’t help I live in an affluent area and went to a California state school full of kids jerking off all day while their parents paid it, and I was busy going to school full time AND working full time starting a career.

Law school is much better in that regard because everyone here is actually an adult. College was just a joke, and I was so glad to be done with it.

fintail > His Stigness 01/17/2018 at 23:49

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I’ve heard it. I like to counter by adjusting the wage for inflation from ~1969 to today, and showing that many areas are far less. They had it easy in that regard. And then in my area, they got started when houses were still affordable for normal working people. It’s luck, but they will call it hard work and sacrifice. I know those not in this area weren’t so lucky, at least in housing, but overall I have no doubt it is rougher now.

For those little shits, the apples don’t fall far from trees, that’s all I can say. Entitled idiot parents sometimes produce entitled idiot kids. The “me” generation had interesting parenting skills.

I’ve been out of school for over 15 years (and took several to pay it off), it would be hard to go back.

Shamoononon drives like a farmer > His Stigness 01/18/2018 at 01:28

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P.S. as credit to your mother, I would be much happier over the additional two children than the mortgage deduction. But they are choices people make.

TahoeSTi > fintail 01/18/2018 at 09:28

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I vote out incumbents, and I vote for the independent option when available.

fintail > TahoeSTi 01/18/2018 at 09:39

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Maybe it is different in your neighborhood. The independents I see in the PNW are all similar to the establishment, and usually backed by similar interests. I can have the bleeding heart left, the wannafascist right, or some independents who are either Ayn Rand addicts, or greenies. Not gonna win with any of those choices.